Driving global impact remotely: webinar recap

Munir Ahmad from the Aga Khan Foundation is a social innovator. Munir adapted his work strategies in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. He found ways to extensively integrate Mural in his work to continue to collaborate and ideate with his team. With more than 70 staff involved so far, the feedback about this new way of working has been extremely positive.

Recently, Munir joined Mural's Head of Education and Nonprofits, Ward Bullard, and Nonprofit Consultant, Emma Schnee, to share the Aga Khan Foundation’s innovative approach to global development amidst unprecedented change. 

In this inspiring session, Munir demonstrated how human-centered design is an asset in global development work. Across 10 countries, 14 AKF design teams are using human-centered design to explore new and creative ideas to address complex problems, mostly focused on the COVID-19 pandemic. Munir emphasized that you do not need to be a designer to use design thinking in your organization. When teams have the freedom and space to innovate as well as tools that make collaboration easy, they can work together to make an impact.

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“This is so helpful…to have not only the tool and features explained…but to be invited into someone’s in-depth working/creative process…and connect with a real person sharing their frameworks and approaches…it puts it all together. Really instructive and inspiring.”


👏  Genevieve Tremblay | Webinar Attendee

Over the next year, the Aga Khan Foundation plans to expand this approach across many of its programs and initiatives. Among those initiatives is Schools2030 – AKF’s flagship education improvement program that operates across 1,000 schools in 10 countries.  

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Access Munir’s template “Learn Mural” Obstacle Course 🏃

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Webinar transcript

Emma: [00:00:00] Hi everyone. Thank you for being here today for a Mural for nonprofits webinar, driving global impact remotely. My name is Emma and I am part of the education and nonprofit team at Mural. And I'm joined by Ward Bullard, who is the head of the education and nonprofit team together we will be moderating this event and we are extremely lucky to have Munir Ahmad as our guest today.

Munir is the global innovation lead at the Aga Khan foundation, which is an agency of the Aga Khan development network based in Geneva. Munir leads the Aga Khan foundations, innovation portfolio, globally. He focuses on addressing the challenge of using design and technology to co-create innovative solutions together, with communities to scale replicate, and bring it impactful and sustainable ideas.

He is also a graduate of the designing for social systems program at the Stanford D school. He is a true Mural pro and I'm sure everyone will learn a lot from him today. So thanks, Munir for being here before we start. If you have any questions, please put them in the zoom Q&A area and Ward, and I will field those for Munir.

Also, please introduce yourself in the zoom chat area, just with your name and location. And if you have any Mural specific questions, send them to nonprofits@mural.co and we will get back to you. To go over a brief overview of today's webinar. we are here hopefully, so that you can learn how Mural can be an asset in the social impact sector.

Munir will introduce himself and the Aga Khan foundation, he will share how to collaborate virtually to create impact, and he will share some challenges and successes that he's found while. Implementing Mural in his organization. [00:02:00] We will end with some questions and hopefully you'll leave today with new ideas for how you can use Mural in your organization.

So Munir, I'm handing it over to you now, and thanks so much. We're excited.

Munir: [00:02:15] Great. So, what I'm showing you might overwhelm you at first, but I'm going to break it down into pieces and kind of give you a tour of what I'm showing you. So this is the first thing that we developed. We call it our Mural dashboard, and this is the way that we found to manage all our design work.

It's kind of the. One stop shop for all our teams to manage and organize their design work. And we have several teams working in parallel, focusing on different challenges through Mural. So, let me first bring you to this area of the Mural, where you can see the design phases. So for those of you who are familiar with the human center design process, this won't be anything new to you.

So here you can see in light green, the usual six stages of human centered design. Three of them understand empathy, size and synthesize are focused on better understanding the problem. And then we have Ida type and tests, which are more focused on finding solutions. So, there's. Nothing new here. So we decided to add three more steps that we found wa were critical to the process.

The first one was, it's what we called prepare and what do I, what we mean with that is to get our teams prepared to collaborate online, basically using Mural and zoom, because most of the people that we were training now, remotely, they were not familiarized with. Collaborating [00:04:00] synchronously online. They would never, they never used Mural.

And actually even zoom was a tool that was not that much known to them. And I will get, get back to the stage in a minute. And we also added another stage towards it as the end, which was more around planning for implementation. Once the solution is. kind of build and test it and storytell so we can empower our teams on how they should tell the story of what they learned and inspire others to support the solution.

So let's move into this prepare stage. So in order to prepare people to start collaborating online, using tools like zoom or Mural, it's a, it's something that requires some effort. In order to do that, we prepared a number of activities. This was a process that took around two to three weeks and we prepared the number of activities to get people started and onboarded with, with Mural.

I'm not going to explain you everything we've done, but I'm going to show you one interesting activity that we have done. to build the skills on Mural. And actually this is a template that we, I'm going to make it available to you. So if you want to use this template and this activity to onboard people on Mural, you'll, you'll have that chance.

So let me explain you how this works. So we would bring people together, a group of 20 people, and we would divide them into four teams. And then each team would be working in a separate breakout room to perform a obstacle course. So the obstacle course is something like this, but done in a digital way with the goal that each obstacle that you find will build some [00:06:00] foundational skills around Mural.

And towards the end, you will be familiarized with the basic features, and you would, and the other advantage of this activity is because people would be working in small teams and in breakout rooms, it was also a great way for them to understand how they work together as a team. In an online environment.

So there are six activities, that we, that we put together in the obstacle course. And I'm going to quickly walk you through that. The first one is around, doing some math. So as you see here, in this example, they would need to take post-its from here and move around, to make, the math work.

And this might seem a very simple activity. But actually it becomes very difficult because there is a limited number of posts. Okay. Suddenly teams are fighting for the same numbers. And the reason why we build this activity is to get people started on moving. Post-its navigating the Mural, zooming in, zooming out and so on and so forth.

And as soon as they finished, they, They go into the icons and they put a check Mark next to their team and they are ready to move on to the next activity. This one focuses on using the image tool. So here they learn how to upload their own picture and put and write a PostIt, with their nickname.

So another set of skills that are being proposed in the third challenge, they have to add us circular posted and go into the image bank of Mural and find a picture of the flag from their country and PO and put it in the right place in the world, depending on where they are joining from. So this is another tool which of the search tool that we, the image search tool that we, kind of, Invite [00:08:00] people to do. The fourth challenge is to build a team logo based on shapes. So here they would learn how to, to what kind of shapes are available and, and changing colors and arrows. And these kinds of. Thanks. the fifth challenge is to tell a story with icons.

So as it can, let's see, in this example, we always have a prompt. And in this example, why did the change? You can cross the road so that chicken. found, a wall who was hungry. So the chicken tots it's better to run away. So we ask people to be creative and other prompts would be, why did the cow go to school?

So we ask people to tell a story using icons and Mural has a great library of. Thousands and thousands of icon. So you learn that. And finally, the sixth challenge is about drawing. So you would have to draw your favorite food, like in this example here, and then we would use that to, At a later stage, once you finish teams because we were using the timer and we usually give 30 minutes to people to go through it.

So teams would, write down, in how much time they complete it, the obstacle course. And once they complete, we ask them to vote on the best logo that they have done here. And the team that has the best logo we would take away one minute from their time and that's, and that's how we give the award. So it's a, it's a very fun activity.

And towards the end, we also do a wrap up. Where we, kind of debrief workshop by asking what are the most important things you learned about Mural? What are the most important things you learned working together as a team? And there are great insights that come from here. And then the usual, I like, I [00:10:00] wish I wonder.

So this proven to be a very fun activity, that people can have a lot of fun build collaboration skills, gain more familiarity, working with their teammates, in a remote environment that the same time build the basic skills around Mural. So, back to the dashboard.

Ward: [00:10:22] We  got some great questions and we wanted to make sure we serve some some of them up to you. so Emma and I are going to tag team on some of the things that are coming in to Q and A, if that's all right, give you a little box. So, the first question that came in from Suzanne was, did you have any bandwidth issues, when you were working on, on, you know, kind of collaborating with a team all over the globe?

Munir: [00:10:44] Yeah. we did have, because we are working with teams that are in Afghanistan and remote areas of Tajikistan and Pakistan. And. And East Africa and Mozambique. So those are the places where our teammates are. So we did have some bandwidth issues, but nothing that prevented us from working. We gave them some tips about, closing all the other software that they would have open, like Outlook. We asked them to use, Google Chrome because apparently it's the browser that works best with Mural. and I don't think this was a barrier or on itself. Of course a bandwidth could be better, but I would say this is something that we were able to address.

Ward: [00:11:30] And then, two quick followups from Suzanne one is around did you use any of the trends? I don't know if you had any language challenges. Did you have any use of the translation option in zoom? And then from a facilitator standpoint, were you managing kind of each of these boards or did you have a team kind of, that were out in breakout rooms? How did you kind of balance that?

Munir: [00:11:53] Yeah, no, we didn't have any issue with the, with language, and, but to be honest, the people that were, [00:12:00] involved in these exercises, they have at least a basic knowledge of English. So that was not an issue about, the facilitation process. to be honest, I didn't go to the various breakout rooms to help them, but they made it.

So this was a 30 minutes where teams were by themselves in individual breakout rooms and they manage it. I was, I would be looking at the Mural, see things progressing and because everything was fine. I didn't have the, any reason to go there.

Ward: [00:12:33] Great. All right. We've got some other questions, but in the interest of time, we'll package those up and continue onto the next phase. So thank you.

Munir: [00:12:42] Great. So I guess now, I want to bring in, at least for me, one of the most interesting parts of what I have to share today. So when it comes to the design process itself in the past, the way we used to do was to package that all training into five days.

So you would come to this training and in five days, You would learn this entire green. Process. And you would practice it a little bit during those five days, and then you would go on your own and apply it to a number of challenges that you would be working on. When we translated this to an online environment, we knew that this would not work.

So, what we decided to do was to create an experience where participants could learn and practice stage by stage, and each stage would take around two to three weeks. So the understand stage would take two, three weeks. And then empathize and so on and so forth. So let me break that down. What one stage looks like, and that's what we call the building blocks of the experience.

So if you were participating in one of these trainings, it would start from a webinar. About, let's say the [00:14:00] understand phase. This webinar usually would take around two hours and would build up the foundation around the concepts, tools, and methods for that particular design stage. And that would be supported by a guidebook.

So we would also provide them with a guidebook where they would have a reference of, of, of the concepts along with all the tools that they were supposed to use during that stage. And I'm going to show you the guidebook in, in a couple of minutes. So once you build that foundation of knowledge, then teams.

For the next two to three weeks would be invited to go through a number of design activities and field work. And those design activities and field work would be supported or would be translated into Mural boards, which I'm also going to show you in a minute. And because teams sometimes would have some difficulty.

We also, as a resource would, make available office hours and tours. The end of the process is they were finishing the work around the particular stage week. We would, invite them for reflect and share session. This would be basically a session in which they would bring in community members, donors.

And other local actors, so they can be aware of the progress that was made. And they could provide also some, some advice if the team was struggling to take some decisions, on our end, we would also have a session with a design critique to provide more technical feedback around the design process.

So this is what would happen for. Each of the stages of the design process. And we, we, another way to look at it is through the calendar. So here you are seeing the calendar of when. [00:16:00] Every webinar's happening. So we have a webinar here, then, we have two, two, three weeks for them to work. Then we have the design critique.

Then we go for the next webinar. So this is how it works. And the overall process takes around six months, five to six months. So, what I want to cover, now is what does this look like? So the understand phase, how do we actually work? And this leads me to this section. where you can find all the resource tools and templates.

And as you can see here, we have, have all the different stages of the design process. And for the sake of time, I'm going to focus mostly on one stage, understand to give you a sense of what is there. So, The, what you see here is the guidance book. So I'm going to open the guidebook just to give you a sense of what you can find there.

And there is a guidebook for each stage of the process. So the guidebook would kind of present. What is the process in this particular one? There are three design activities. It's a mind mapping activity. To, to frame the challenge through a tool, which we call the challenge brief, and then to make that visual so you can present it to others.

It outlines the mindsets, the objectives, so on and so forth provides a case study. and, and explains each tool, the mind mapping tool, the estimated time and so on and so forth. And from there, it's when you start to have the tools and the templates itself for you to work on, and because teams are new to design, we thought that throughout all the guidebooks, we will be providing an example.

And the example that we provided. This is the first tool. The mind mapping, the example that we provided was how might we reimagine learning at home COVID-19 and beyond. And this would be kind of our [00:18:00] mind map. And on the next page, you would have a blank page for the teams to do the mind map of their own challenge.

You keep going and you have the second tool. This is the challenge brief template, which is a collection of 12 questions. What is the problem you are trying to solve? Why is this problem worth solving? What is the impact you are hoping to create? So this is all around framing the problem. And here again, it's our example.

And then the next page, it would have the blank template for you to fill and it goes on and on and on like that. And towards the end, we would have a tool, for teams to, Let me just capture their learning. So from this entire state, what are the key insights and observations that are most important?

And for them to align and reflect on the process. between the team. So they can not only apply the process, but be self aware of how they are learning and evolving as a team. We also provide them with a rubric to help them self assess their own progress, which will place them, as not, yeah, ready, ready with hesitation or ready with confidence.

So for each tool, they would be able to through this rubric to self assess themselves, So the question now is how does this work in an online environment? Because the reality is that people are actually most of our team members, they are, they are working from home, so they cannot meet. So how can this work, progress?

Yes. In an online environment. And that's when we use these Mural workspaces. So as you can see here, and before I go there, just to finish this, we also give them a recording of the webinars so they can just double click and access, the webinars so they [00:20:00] can watch the recording. They have the slide deck.

This is the slide deck for the design critique. And the recording for the design critique. So we put everything in Mural. They don't need to go anywhere else. Mural provides them with everything right now for each team. And for each design stage, we provide them with the Mural board. So I'm going to open up the Mural board for the team in Kyrgyzstan, where they are doing the work around this understand phase.

So, this is what it looks like, and you will see resemblance between the guidebook. And the Mural board. So you'll see the, I'm going to zoom in. We see there for view of the process. Again, the three, design tools do objectives, the mindsets, and this is where they would create their own mind map. So this is the mind map that team in Kyrgyzstan put together together.

We move into to the challenge brief. This is where. They filled in based on their challenge, which is around mitigating food insecurity due to covet. So they outlined what is the impact they are trying to have whom they are working to solve this problem for what are the constraints of the project. So they are framing the problem.

This is the next tool. Which is the visual challenge brief and the capture learning session section, and the rubric. So everything that you've seen in the guidebook is also translated into Mural. And the way our point of view is. You print the guidebook and you can use it as your own reference and you can make your diagrams and your own observations, but then you work synchronously with your team using zoom and Mural, and the Mural will reflect the team perspective.

And also you will see here in, in a number of places, you'll see these green [00:22:00] dots. These green dots are a way for us to provide feedback to the teams. So when I read this, I, I had a comment. So I just wrote down my comment or a question and the team would answer to me. So this is also a great way for, for me and my team that is kind of overseeing a number of things.

Designed processes in parallel for us to manage that work and, and, and keep providing feedback to the teams.

Ward: [00:22:30] I think Emma and I have to jump in so Emma go for it.

Emma: [00:22:33] Yeah. So while you're talking about these teams, Suzanne has a question were they homogeneous teams like one team per country or international teams?

Munir: [00:22:43] Well, they are, they are teams that are based in the same country, but they are not homogeneous in the sense that we tend to put together multidisciplinary teams. So you would have, gender balance. You would have people with different levels of experience and coming from different, different technical backgrounds as well.

Ward: [00:23:07] Munir, another question that Genevieve had asked earlier was how much of the work would you estimate was handled synchronously, like live, you know, amongst the team versus asynchronously?

Munir: [00:23:18] That's a hard one because when they work synchronously, I'm not there. But, but out what I'm getting back from them is to go through each of these stages, it represents something between, 15 to 25 hours. I would imagine that half of that is synchronous. And half of that is a synchronous it's individual work. And when they come together, they discuss, so I would say probably half, half.

Ward: [00:23:49] All right. Last question before we head back to you, cause I know we're rapidly coming to the hour. So Nancy asked, kind of about scale. So the number of participants, number of teams, like [00:24:00] that you're kind of, again, fostering through this process at any one time can you talk a little bit more about that and what type of support you were having to?

Munir: [00:24:08] That's a great question. And to be honest, I had a vision for innovation at AKF that I would expect it to realize it in the next three to five years due to COVID I was forced to do it in trouble two or three months, but, yeah, it's great because now we have this planet form that allows us to scale. So multiple teams can engage with these templates. we are looking at, making, converting these webinars into high production videos so this can be taken as self service to really scale this out and eventually even to, to make this available in an open source model. So right now we have for this project, three teams working and for another one where we are working around schools in 10 countries, I would say we have around six other teams working on that.

But very soon, because we are getting very positive feedback very soon this will, this will scale up.

Ward: [00:25:09] Wonderful. All right. Well, again, the time is taking, so we'll get back to your next set. I mean, again, you're dropping so much knowledge, Emma and I can only relay partially the gratitude that is being expressed in the chat by the attendees. So please continue.

Munir: [00:25:25] Yeah, I'm going to continue just for a few more minutes, because I would like to show, So, as you see here, we have these tools and templates, each stage of the design process. Of course, we don't have time to go through all of them, but I, I would like to show you one more, which is, related to the empathize stage. This is the stage where we, we start to listen and interview community members together, their insights. So this is the board, that relates to [00:26:00] empathize. Let me just, refresh my browser. Hopefully it will load. Yeah. So, and here we have a number of new activities. So the first one is a stakeholder mapping activity.

And then we ask teams to think about who they would like to interview. So here we, we, usually ask them to do at least nine interviews and here from what we can see from the post-its, they will be interviewing farmers, woman who is head of cool cooperatives are people from the engine, from NGOs and so on and so forth.

And then we ask them to, for each stakeholder group to think about what are the questions that they would like to ask. And then based on the various interviews that they run, this is the area where they will reflect there notes, and observations. So. Who did you interview? What were the interview questions?

What stories did you hear? What emotions did you observe and what are the five most important things that you learned? And this is for each interview done collaboratively with the team. And again, it goes through all the other exercises. Finally capture learnings. Reflect and share and our usual rubric.

So you would find these type of tools in each board for each stage of the process. Yeah. And, and yeah, and I would say if you look at these dashboards, You will see that, the latter parts of the dashboard are still not built. So we are, as I usually say, say we are building the road and driving at the same point at the same time, not everything is built, but we are learning a lot.

And so far, this is enabling us to work remotely, which we never thought [00:28:00] how we could do it. and we are getting very positive feedback from our teams on the ground. And maybe I'll stop here.

Emma: [00:28:09] Thank you so much Munir. It's really incredible. The work you do with Mural and you're getting lost shout outs in the chat right now for, just how incredible this is and people are enjoying, learning from you so thank you again for being here. so before we move into more formal question time, I have one question for you that I'd love to ask. I'm curious, what are some main lessons or advice that you can give to those in the social impact sector who are starting to engage in remote design work, using Mural?

Munir: [00:28:42] Yeah, I, I would say that, the first thing, and this is what I say to everyone that works with me on, in the countries where we work. the first thing is, design and human centered design can be learned. You actually, you don't need to be a designer. so myself, I don't have a background in design.

I have a background in technology. But I read a lot of books. I took a bunch of online courses. I ended up, kind of, finishing my education in design by going through the D school, which was an amazing opportunity, but it takes effort, optimism, and passion, and you can do it. The other lesson is this might seem hard to say starts on how to collaborate effectively online.

But it really works and it pays off. It pays off financially because now I'm not traveling 50% of the time I'm traveling zero. hopefully in the near future might go up to 10 or 20, but I don't think I'll go back to travel the way I was traveling. So it's environmentally more friendly and it improves your quality of life cause you can stay more time with your family. The other advice is take it slowly step by step. You don't, you, you don't need to come up with [00:30:00] such an elaborate Mural from day one. That's not how I started. I started with simple post-its. And that's it. And as you start to build your own confidence, you start leading a more advanced exercises.

So start with something small and advance as you feel comfortable. And my, my final advice would be, start with structure and then go wild. And what I mean with that is there's this analogy of when, when you are learning how to cook, you follow a recipe. Step-by-step. And the same in design. When you are learning design, follow the tools step by step before you start customizing them. So once you gain practice in the, in the kitchen, then you start, then you start changing ingredients, putting more salt, and that's the same with design. So start with something simple and structure it, and then you will customize the tools based on your needs or your own project.

Emma: [00:31:02] Yup. I think that's great advice. I definitely looking at a blank Mural can be daunting at some points. So starting with a simple and structured aspects is a great way to start. So we have some questions coming up that we are going to ask you from our guests. So Nancy is wondering, in your collection of Murals, how many do you estimate are the number of independent Murals  in the project?

Munir: [00:31:35] Per team would be, nine, nine boards per team. Which is each step one board per step.

Emma: [00:31:47] Then from Allie. she's curious what agencies, in addition to the Aga Khan foundation are championing design in the development sector. Who do you look up to? Are there any initiatives you're particularly [00:32:00] inspired by outside of your agency?

Munir: [00:32:03] So we started with the Aga Khan foundation, but as you might know, the  foundation is one agency from the broader, icon development network. So we are starting with our, where work is getting some exposure and we are getting some requests to work with other agencies, which is happening right now.

So we are already collaborating with other agencies and I would say that, I take inspiration from what other organizations are doing, whether it's IRC or ideo.org, there are a number of amazing organizations doing great work. And the more we share, the more we collaborate, there are no secrets here.

We want to learn from each other. We want to get inspired from each other. so there are a lot of champions out there and great organizations where we can, we can tap into, to learn how, what is their perspective and take on how this type of work can be done.

Emma: [00:33:05] Suzanne has a question. what type of evaluation process do you implement?

Munir: [00:33:11] This is a good question. And I, myself, I'm not an expert in the field, but for this particular project, we hired what we call the learning partner. So the role of the learning partner is to capture the process and evaluate the process so we can build some evidence on how human centered design provides a better way of delivering on solutions for the communities when compared to.

Just the, the usual way. And, sometimes the usual way is four or five people coming together in the room room and in a meeting deciding what the community needs. So this provides us with a much more robust process to understand needs and come up with [00:34:00] solutions that ultimately can be meaningful to them. Not to us.

Emma: [00:34:04] Yeah, definitely. All right, we'll do one more question before you close us out. So Alexander's asking, what obstacles did you have when it came to training people who are not fluent in utilizing zoom or other platforms needed to use Mural effectively?

Munir: [00:34:21] Well, I had a lot of obstacles. it's not easy if, if someone is not tech savvy is not used to zoom and Mural, it takes time  but you have to, if you, if your goal is to train them, you have to have the patience and give enough time so they can build skill. upon skill. So you might need to leave, three, four weeks every week. You have a different activity. And meanwhile, one of the things that we do is we share, there are some great Mural videos.

I found one video it's a one hour video on Mural that explains everything. I also found a video on, on zoom and actually they are here. We have this section keep exploring. Where we provide links to interesting videos and, and, articles. so we have here introduction to, Mural a one hour video zoom meeting training one hour video.

And when people watch that they have the basics, then it's about practicing. And we do that through a number of, fun activities.

Emma: [00:35:25] Thanks so much Munir for anyone else who has any other questions for the sake of time I think we won't answer them, unfortunately with Munir here, but please email us at nonprofits@mural.co and we will try to answer those for you. So Munir, would you like to share any last words, to end us out today?

Munir: [00:35:46] Yeah, the final kind of message that I would have for you is, is to encourage you to explore the potential of human center design, because it can be really powerful.

I've, I've been [00:36:00] using it for the last five years or so, and it's, it's changed the way we design programs. So if you are involved in program design and delivery, I would, I would recommend you to. Yeah, at least explore it and a message of hope that if we development practitioners, if we are given the time, the appropriate tools, the resources, and the permission to innovate, we can come up with great ideas.

Great solutions. That have the potential to improve the lives of people in poverty. So, I would definitely suggest you to explore human centered design. And if you need to do that remotely, do it through zoom and Mural.

Emma: [00:36:44] Thank you so much. Munir everyone has learned so much from you today and we so appreciate you joining us.

I'm going to share my screen really briefly, just to. Introduce our next webinar. That we will be hosting. You're going to be a tough act to follow Munir but we will be hosting another, Mural for nonprofits webinar, driving local impact on August 6th at 1:00 PM Pacific time. And we will be joined by Nick Tietz from the ILT Academy and his colleagues as well and they are a social enterprise and they will be sharing with us how they're using MURAL, in workshops with, to support entrepreneurs in, disadvantaged geographies. So it'll be another great, webinar, and we hope that you all can join us.

I will be sending the link to register in the chat so you can join us there. Thank you so much Munir.

Ward: [00:37:49] Thank you Munir, this  is amazing again, we will, be, looking forward to learning again and keeping tabs on all the progress that you continue to  make through. your [00:38:00] leadership, because again, ultimately, there are some amazing tools out there we're happy and proud of Mural.

We're proud of, you know, obviously we use zoom ourselves here quite often, but it comes down to people and the work that you are doing to change communities is tremendous. And again, Tip of the hat to you and to the team that you've assembled to make that magic happen. So again, thank you very much.

And as you said, Emma, Nick has been on, on this webinar. He's probably taking notes and he's got a, a fair amount of, work to do to make sure he tries to live up to the amazing high standard that you have, established for this series. So thank you very much, but I have full confidence in Nick's capacity to bring his a game as long as all Shelby and Anna. So I thank you again to Munir. Thank you, Emma. And again, most, gratitude to all the attendees for their engagement in participating in today's series. So see everybody very soon.

Munir: [00:38:53] Thank you very much.

Ward: [00:38:54] Bye bye.

Emma: [00:38:56] Bye.